Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-23 12:03 PM:
从写作的角度说，不是词典里查到的就可以在任何地方使用。用什么，要根据上下文。在表达“金秋落叶”这个概念时，我们通常说Leaves are falling from the tress.
文学，特别是诗歌，不是科学，它们有着自己特殊的语言。在生活里行不通的东西，在诗歌里就可以畅通无阻。“金秋落叶” 作者或译者往往可以不按所谓的‘规矩’出牌的...
Could I say "Autumn bids trees shed their leaves..."?
Originally posted by [i]小草[/i] at 2017-9-24 04:34:文学，特别是诗歌，不是科学，它们有着自己特殊的语言。在生活里行不通的东西，在诗歌里就可以畅通无阻。“金秋落叶” 作者或译者往往可以不按所谓的‘规矩’出牌的...
Could I say "Autumn bids tre..
You can very well say “Autumn bids trees shed their leaves,” but in terms of translation, the original text “无边落木萧萧下”does not justify the use of the sentence pattern “trees + shed their leaves.” The original text emphasizes how the leaves are falling, but not how the trees shed their leaves. Your quote emphasizes the word “Autumn”that bids trees to shed their leaves. Then what is that thing that bids the trees in the translation to shed their leaves? Why, in translating this sentence, you want your readers to think about the cause of the action expressed by the word “shed?” That absolutely has nothing to do with the meaning and image created in the original text. You can very well say “My eyes are turning red,” but unless you have a reason, you wouldn’t say “My body reddens my eyes.”
Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-24 06:04 PM:
You can very well say “Autumn bids trees shed their leaves,” but in terms of translation, the original text “无边落木萧萧下”does not justify the use of the sentence pattern “trees + shed their leaves.” The original text emphasizes how the leaves are falling, but not how the trees shed their leaves. Your quote emphasizes the word “Autumn”that bids trees to shed their leaves. Then what is that thing that bids the trees in the translation to shed their leaves? Why, in translating this sentence, you want your readers to think about the cause of the action expressed by the word “shed?” That absolutely has nothing to do with the meaning and image created in the original text. You can very well say “My eyes are turning red,” but unless you have a reason, you wouldn’t say “My body reddens my eyes.”
我估计我不会说 My body reddens my eyes， 但我会说 My weep or sob or cry reddens my eyes， 这个估计不会有问题吧？
无边落木萧萧下 － 这应该是树木新陈代谢的一个周期（和气候季节有关）一个自然景观吧？（除非树木因病虫害的原因而树叶凋零）而非因为树自身的感情所至。是的，通常我们会说 leaves are falling from the trees， 这是一种表达方法，那么是否还可以有其它方法来表达呢？a tree sheds its leaves 可以是另外一种吧？a tree sheds its leaves 也应属于一种自然现象吧？
Then what is that thing that bids the trees in the translation to shed their leaves? －－－－其实原诗已经说了 autumn bids endless trees shed their leaves = leaves are falling (from trees) when autumn is calling, 只是在原诗文字里没有出现而已吧？
We are talking about two different things here. While you are talking about the grammatical legitimacy of the structure, which I do not challenge, I am talking about accurate rendering of the translation. When you say “The trees shed their leaves,” you place the emphasis on “what or who issues the action 'shed',” while I believe the original text emphasizes “how the leaves fall.” "How leaves fall" is what the original text wants to say, not "How trees shed..."
Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-25 01:11 AM:
We are talking about two different things here. While you are talking about the grammatical legitimacy of the structure, which I do not challenge, I am talking about accurate rendering of the trans..
原文是 无边落木， 什么是 落木，为什么是 落木，而非 落叶，难道仅仅是为了平仄？
是的，你的理解是对的，“落木“就是一块块掉下的树干，木头。
你读完“无边落木萧萧下”后，得到的形象是一望无际的树木在泻其树叶，还是树叶在纷纷落下？哪个形象更美？哪个更符合审美？
Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-26 01:17 AM:
你读完“无边落木萧萧下”后，得到的形象是一望无际的树木在泻其树叶，还是树叶在纷纷落下？哪个形象更美？哪个更符合审美？
给我有三个意象，第一，风高，这个在首句诗人就已交待，但在这句句子里诗人是通过“萧萧”这对叠字来加强这个意象，为这句句子里另外二个意象铺路。第二，一望无际的树林，而且这些树林正在落叶。第三，树叶纷飞。
读者读这句句子应该要联想到诗人当时的生活。他是在欣赏秋风落叶的美景吗？
你能看到是“树叶纷飞”，而不是“树木泄其叶”就已经回答了我的问题，肯定了这个句子译成trees + shed their leaves不如 leaves + fall。关于诗词方面的问题，这里诗人很多，你可以跟他们讨论。
Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-26 11:59 PM:
你能看到是“树叶纷飞”，而不是“树木泄其叶”就已经回答了我的问题，肯定了这个句子译成trees + shed their leaves不如 leaves + fall。关于诗词方面的问题，这里诗人很多，你可以跟他们讨论。
我没有肯定 shed 不如 fall :)) Well, one man's meat is another man's poison --- this is what i firmly believe in. Thanks for your discussion, which is always highly appreciated!:))
Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-26 11:59 PM:
你能看到是“树叶纷飞”，而不是“树木泄其叶”就已经回答了我的问题，肯定了这个句子译成trees + shed their leaves不如 leaves + fall。关于诗词方面的问题，这里诗人很多，你可以跟他们讨论。
我也鼓捣一版凑凑热闹，还望徐 （路）教授能不吝赐教！古诗词的韵律，特别是尾韵好像是有讲究的，都是一韵到底吧？而且还要分什么平仄韵，这是一个特点，但是对译者来讲可是一个不小的挑战，（平仄韵太难了，这个高度无法逾越）但是现在汉诗英译一般都是译者自己按英诗韵脚格式自由发挥，我认为这是一种遗憾，因为如此一来不谙中国古诗的读者无法通过赏读译文来到达粗浅地了解中国古诗词是如何用韵的。所以我尝试按原诗的韵脚来译，从而希望读者能欣赏到中国古诗词的用韵。这儿都是行家大师，我班门弄斧了，还望各位多多海涵！多多批评斧正！谢谢！
《登高》－ 杜甫
风急天高猿啸哀，
渚清沙白鸟飞回。
无边落木萧萧下，
不尽长江滚滚来。
万里悲秋常作客，
百年多病独登台。
艰难苦恨繁霜鬓，
潦倒新停浊酒杯。
A Verse by Du Fu
(Ascending the Heights)
Apes wail in the wuthering wind under the sky,
Above isles and white sand round in circles birds fly.
Adown and down rustle the leaves from endless trees,
Apace on and on rolls the Yangtze from on high.
A wretched wanderer feels more doleful in autumn,
Alone I, aged and ill, ascend the heights with sigh.
Adversities have hastened my hair turning grey,
And new hard knocks have forced me to bid wine goodbye.
Tr. Xiao Cao
译得不错。
你说，你要尝试按原诗的韵脚来译，那么原诗的节奏呢？比如“风急－－天高－－猿啸哀”？
Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-28 01:30 AM:
译得不错。你说，你要尝试按原诗的韵脚来译，那么原诗的节奏呢？比如“风急－－天高－－猿啸哀”？
你是搞语言专业的，特别是英文，你认为完全对应可能吗？对应韵脚至少可以让读者粗浅地了解中国古诗的韵脚和英诗韵脚不同，英诗可以是 aabb, abab, abba, 甚至所谓的鲁拜体，aaba, （这个韵式和古诗绝句配似乎很般配），但这只能代表英诗的特色而非我国古诗的特征。还有比如英诗有 abcb, 这个比较适合 五言或七言绝句，因为绝句往往首句不入韵，所以可以套用。
节奏乃诗之生命，韵脚乃诗之形，有点意思即可，不然成了自由诗。陋见。
Originally posted by [i]路[/i] at 2017-9-28 02:36 AM:
节奏乃诗之生命，韵脚乃诗之形，有点意思即可，不然成了自由诗。陋见。
你觉得我的节奏不好？