Thank you professor! I just finished reading 4 chapters of Tao Te Ching. Now I understand that Tao is something mysterious, intangible and untouchable, as if an empty belly of a container. The natural law is Dao, but Dao is not exactly equal to the natural law. Everything can be Dao, but Dao is difficult to be defined. They say that the idea of Dao is similar to Logos, the notable idea----"everything flows" by Heraclitus.

I agree with you 非常道 refers to something that is hard to define.
Mr. Xu 's translation "but it is not the common law." is wrong.

路先生，讀了大作，恕我唐突，有個小小的語法問題與閣下商榷。閣下的DAO是個抽象名詞吧? 根據語法規則，是否抽象名詞前不能用不定冠詞 A ?

Originally posted by [i]海外逸士[/i] at 2016-1-7 10:02:
路先生，讀了大作，恕我唐突，有個小小的語法問題與閣下商榷。閣下的DAO是個抽象名詞吧? 根據語法規則，是否抽象名詞前不能用不定冠詞 A ?

可以。比如：

A Mr. Li came to see you this morning.

路先生，Mr. Li 不是抽象名詞。如果在場的李先生不止一個，甚至可用複數。

sample words of abstract nouns from online grammar:

•Bravery
•Brilliance
•Brutality
•Calm
•Charity
•Coldness
•Compassion
•Confidence
•Contentment
•Courage
•Curiosity
You can't say "a bravery, a curiosity," etc.

Originally posted by [i]海外逸士[/i] at 2016-1-7 15:26:
路先生，Mr. Li 不是抽象名詞。如果在場的李先生不止一個，甚至可用複數。

很高兴我们能有理有节地讨论。

我从来没说过Dao是抽象名词。是你自己说的，你说的时候我没有纠正你，不信你回到楼上去看看。

这里的Dao和Mr. Li都是专有名词。

你可能是认为这里的Dao很神秘，所以就是抽象名词。不是这样的。它是一个专有名词，它就像Mars(火星)，Mercury（水星）， Venus（金星），等等一样，不因为指的东西对我们很神秘它们就是抽象名词。它们都是专有名词，所以第一个字母都大写。

这本不用解释，可能是时间长了，你把大学里学的语法忘记了。

•Bravery
•Brilliance
•Brutality
•Calm
•Charity
•Coldness
•Compassion
•Confidence
•Contentment
•Courage
•Curiosity

这些词在词典里都是这样写的，所以它们不是专有名词。

•bravery
•brilliance
•brutality
•calm
•charity
•coldness
•compassion
•confidence
•contentment
•courage
•curiosity

它们跟Dao是风马牛不相及的。劝你仔细想想，希望你想得明白。

根據閣下對道的解釋，道表達一種概念。所以是抽象名詞。

專有名詞只包括人名，地名，山川河流名，船舶名之類。表達概念名詞，即使是專有概念，也不屬專有名詞範圍。請參考語法書。

本人在國內大學兼教語法。看過許多語法書。語法書裡有詞類一章，其中有名詞一節，內分可數名詞，不可數名詞，包括抽象名詞，物質名詞等。請看各類名詞的定義。不是可以個人認為來劃分的.

如果 DAO 前用A， 表示一種 DAO，那麼閣下在此談到幾種DAO? 或是幾種 DAO 中的某一種。

Originally posted by [i]海外逸士[/i] at 2016-1-7 17:44:
根據閣下對道的解釋，道表達一種概念。所以是抽象名詞。

專有名詞只包括人名，地名，山川河流名，船舶名之類。表達概念名詞，即使是專有概念，也不屬專有名詞範圍。請參考語法書。

本人在國內大學兼教語法。..

Still reading Chinese grammar books? I highly recommend that you read English ones so that you can learn Authentic English and true English skills.

I am making my effort here to help you understand what a proper noun is, this basic English grammar skill. Here is the quote from [url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proper_noun [/url] that gives a detailed explanation to what a proper noun is.

A proper noun is a noun that in its primary application refers to a unique entity, such as London, Jupiter, Sarah, or Microsoft, as distinguished from a common noun, which usually refers to a class of entities (city, planet, person, corporation), or non-unique instances of a specific class (a city, another planet, these persons, our corporation).[1] Some proper nouns occur in plural form (optionally or exclusively), and then they refer to groups of entities considered as unique (the Hendersons, the Everglades, the Azores, the Pleiades). Proper nouns can also occur in secondary applications, for example modifying nouns (the Mozart experience; his Azores adventure), or in the role of common nouns (he's no Pavarotti; a few would-be Napoleons). The detailed definition of the term is problematic and to an extent governed by convention.[2]

A distinction is normally made in current linguistics between proper nouns and proper names. By this strict distinction, because the term noun is used for a class of single words (tree, beauty), only single-word proper names are proper nouns: Peter and Africa are both proper names and proper nouns; but Peter the Great and South Africa, while they are proper names, are not proper nouns. The term common name is not much used to contrast with proper name, but some linguists have used the term for that purpose. Sometimes proper names are called simply names; but that term is often used more broadly. Words derived from proper names are sometimes called proper adjectives (or proper adverbs, and so on), but not in mainstream linguistic theory. Not every noun or noun phrase that refers to a unique entity is a proper name. Blackness and chastity are common nouns, even if blackness and chastity are considered unique abstract entities.

Few proper names have only one possible referent: there are many places named New Haven; Jupiter may refer to a planet, a god, a ship, or a symphony; at least one person has been named Mata Hari, but so have a horse, a song, and three films; there are towns and people named Toyota, as well as the company.

In English, proper names in their primary application cannot normally be modified by an article or other determiner (such as any or another), although some may be taken to include the article the, as in the Netherlands, the Roaring Forties, or the Rolling Stones. A proper name may appear to refer by having a descriptive meaning, even though it does not (the Rolling Stones are not stones and do not roll; a woman named Rose is not a flower). Or if it had once been descriptive (and then perhaps not even a proper name at all), it may no longer be so (a location previously referred to as "the new town" may now have the proper name Newtown, though it is no longer new, and is now a city rather than a town).

Hope this is helpful. I have a request for you and hope you will fulfill it. You see, on Venus, there is such a phenomenon that every morning there is a great gust of wind that ripples the land. American scientists want to name this phenomenon so that they can properly refer to it in their discussion. Someone suggests that they use the name the Chinese philosopher Lao Zi gave in his book “Dao De Jing”that describes how the world came into being. Can you help me come up with the English proper noun for it?

Thank you.

多谢路老师介绍【道德经】 。

道德经最后一句，天之道，利而不害。圣人之道，为而不争。信言不美，美言不信。善者不辩，辩者不善。知者不博，博者不知。

道德经

第八十一章
[原文]

信言①不美，美言不信。善者②不辩③，辩者不善。知者不博④，博者不知。圣人不积⑤，既以为人己愈有⑥，既以与人己愈多⑦。天之道，利而不害⑧。圣人之道⑨，为而不争。

[译文]

真实可信的话不漂亮，漂亮的话不真实。善良的人不巧说，巧说的人不善良。真正有知识的人不卖弄，卖弄自己懂得多的人不是真有知识。圣人是不存占有之心的，而是尽力照顾别人，他自己也更为充足；他尽力给予别人，自己反而更丰富。自然的规律是让万事万物都得到好处，而不伤害它们。圣人的行为准则是，做什么事都不跟别人争夺。

路同志，你的"道"屬於你提出那個英文定義裡的哪一項? 請具體指出。

我早就知道你老是要強詞奪理。你以為中文語法書與英文語法書是不一樣的?當時國內只有中文語法書。我懷疑閣下是否系統學過英文語法，是否是英文專業畢業。其實，許多會寫英文的人是別的專業人士，這是正常的，可怕的阻礙自己進步的是文過飾非。你不回答也可以。看語法書又不是我的專利，大家都可去看語法書，知道哪個詞是什麼性質的名詞。

Originally posted by [i]海外逸士[/i] at 2016-1-8 08:35:
路同志，你的"道"屬於你提出那個英文定義裡的哪一項? 請具體指出。

我早就知道你老是要強詞奪理。你以為中文語法書與英文語法書是不一樣的?當時國內只有中文語法書。我懷疑閣下是否系統學過英文語法..

Please talk to me in English, otherwise shut up.
请用英语跟我说，不然闭嘴。

別以為你英文好。我就是要用中文跟你說，大家都可以看懂。

其實，你有否寫錯跟我一點沒關係。我也太熱心了。抱歉，以後不再指出你的錯誤了。有其他專業人士看着呢。

（本帖是我一楼帖的继续）

我来把我在一楼发的帖总结一下：

对某些人来说（不是指大家），《道德经》比较难懂，特别是第一章。老子在这一个章节里，建立了一个基本概念。这个基本概念是《道德经》全书的核心，也是老子哲学思想体系的核心。它就是“道”。那么，“道”是什么呢？关于这个“道”，有很多专著论述它。不过，我们在这里只能简单地谈一谈。

在老子的哲学观里，”道“有两种，一是从无里生成天地的那个“东西”，即“常道”（或者叫“恒道”）；二是天地里各事物的规律，即“非常道”（或者叫“普通道”）。因为我们认知普通事物的规律，所以我们可以用带属性的名词来命名这些规律，定义它们。比如我们知道天冷了水会结冰，我们把那个结成冻状的水叫做冰，而且我们可以定义什么是冰。但因为我们不知道“常道” （或者叫“恒道”）是什么，也无法了解它，所以我们就不能定义它，也不可用带属性的名词来命名它。也就是说，我们不可以用象“水”呀“火” 呀这类带属性的名词来命名它。因为一旦你用这类名词来命名它，我们就定义了它，把它限定在了这类名词的属性里了。这就是为什么我们不能象许渊冲那样把这个“常道”译成the divine law。因为一旦我们这么做了，我们就把它限定在了the divine law的属性里了，也就表明我们认知它了。那么，我们怎样才能解决这一翻译里的难题呢？我认为我们应该把它译作专有名词Dao，即用拼音直接把老子的这个“道”字译进译文里去，丝毫不改变它。也有很多同仁是这样译的。

另外，专有名词一般不作可数名词用，因为它是某东西专有的。但一般不作可数名词用不等于它不可以作可数名词用。英语里专有名词用作可数名词的也多了去了。比如：A Mr. Li came to see you this morning。这个句子跟Mr. Li came to see you this morning的区别是：前者表示一个你不认识但你知道他叫什么Li的人早上来过；而后者则表示你和你的说话对象都认识Mr. Li。

A Dao that is definable is not the eternal Dao里的Dao 就是一个专有名词当作可数名词用。这里为什么要把它当作可数名词用呢？因为在老子的哲学观里，“道/Dao”有两种，一种是“普通的道”（天地里事物的规律），一种是“常道”（生成天地的那个道）。

下面把我第一章的完整译文贴出来。

《道德经》第一章

徐英才译:
道 可 道 ， 非 常 道 。A Dao that is definable is not the eternal Dao.
名 可 名 ， 非 常 名 。A name that is attributable is not the eternal name.
无 名 天 地 之 始 ﹔“Nonexistence” is named for the genesis of heaven-and-earth；
有 名 万 物 之 母 。“Existence,” the mother of all beings.
故 常 无 ， 欲 以 观 其 妙 ﹔Hence, through constant meditation on nonexistence, we can see its secrets.
常 有 ， 欲 以 观 其 徼 。Through constant observation of existence, its manifestations.
此 两 者 ， 同 出 而 异 名 ， 同 谓 之 玄 。These two, although given different names, are of the same origin.
玄 之 又 玄 ， 众 妙 之 门 。They are both mysterious-- So mysterious that they can serve as the gate to the secrets of all.

注：attributable： a word ascribing a quality （见： [url] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attributable [/url]）